Biography
The following interview on March 26 is with MikJack W. Flock who finished law school in three years at the University of Texas at Austin. The interviewer is unknown.JF is Jack Flock
INTERVIEWER is unknown
Transcript
The interviewee is Jack W. Flock, the interviewer is unknown.
INTERVIEWER: Time and Date:
JF: Wed. March 26, 12:45 pm.
INTERVIEWER: Name:
JF: Jack W. Flock.
INTERVIEWER: Where do you currently reside?
JF: 2231 Old Bullard road in Tyler.
INTERVIEWER: How long have you lived here?
JF: All my life.
INTERVIEWER: Discuss your educational background.
JF: Graduated from Tyler high school, TJC and graduated, transferred to UT Austin took 1 year of academics. Went in to Law School, finished in 3 years. Came back to Tyler and began practicing law.
INTERVIEWER: What is your present position and how long have you held this post?
JF: I am called "of counsel" to Ramey and Flock, and that's my name and firm. I've been in this firm about 60 years. I'm just an attorney with the firm, and as you might suspect I've cut down the number of cases I do. I just help the boys up here if they want me to. I've been with this firm, I came here in '51 so that's 52 years. But I've been practicing law since 1938, so that's 65 years.
INTERVIEWER: How long did you work with the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Texas?
JF: Ever since Judge Steger was appointed Federal Judge and that was about….I'm afraid to say the exact year because I don't remember the exact year, but he's been on the bench about 30 years. In fact he's taken senior status, he still tries matters such as pleas of guilty and probation questions. And he is afflicted to some extent with osteoporosis, which affects his back so he has cut down on the number of cases that he handles.
INTERVIEWER: Discuss changes in the court during your tenure. What judges initiated these changes?
JF: There have been numerous procedural changes mostly for the benefit of criminal defendants to make sure they get all of their rights. The jury system has changed, I don't know how many they have now but it was reduced to about 8 from 12, at least several juries. Steger used to try both civil and criminal cases. Even though he has this affliction, which I discussed, he's very sharp. Mentally he is very sharp but physically he's having a hard time getting around. He has law clerks and we've hired 2 or 3 of them. And they help him considerably, help him get around and brief cases for him and things of that nature. Of course the federal bench hasn't really changed all that much, I used to try a lot of cases up there and when I first got out of law school the federal judge here was Randolph Bryant. He called me in and said that he had heard that I just finished school, I answered yes. Well he said "you be up here Monday I'm going to appoint you some cases." And I tried to back off, I said "Judge Bryant I just got out of law school I don't know a thing in the world about criminal practice in federal court." He said "I know you don't know, I'm going to help you we're going to try 18 cases." They were mostly liquor cases, failure to pay tax on liquor and one man burned down a mailbox that was one case. That was my introduction to the federal court. We now have of course 4 or 5 federal district judges that try cases in this district. Most people don't know this, here is a picture of the first United States district Judge chief justice you can't find 5 school kids that know that, John Jay. He was the first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court.
INTERVIEWER: Procedural?
JF: Of course there has been some procedural changes, number of jurors, I think they're using 8 jurors, used to use 12. There's a whole lot of change in the way a case is submitted to the jury by the judge. It used to be all oral, oral instructions. Now they've gotten away from some of that. They still orally instruct but they can give them some written instructions if they desire.
INTERVIEWER: Changes in interpretation of the law?
JF: Oh yes, the interpretation of the U.S. Constitution still changes, the people who signed the original constitution wouldn't recognize it if they were here today. And mainly it's for the preservation of the rights of the people. That's the way it's changed, they've tried to make it better for the common man.
INTERVIEWER: What judges?
JF: Justice did, he's in Austin now, he initiated a lot of changes. And so did John Hanna who is one of the present judges; both smart people. Of course the type of judge that Randolph Bryant, who was judge when I first got out of school, and the present judges, there is a whole lot of difference. Randolph Bryant was more conservative and he didn't like liberality in the interpretation of the law. So I'd say the court has gotten awfully liberal and it used to be more conservative.
INTERVIEWER: When did this start?
JF: Started with Judge Justice, he was a Ralph Yarbrough man, very liberal he was appointed. He lived a block of two from me. He and I didn't see the same thing, he was ultra liberal and I am ultra conservative.
INTERVIEWER: Discuss public perception of the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Texas.
JF: The public I would say has increased its respect for the federal courts as opposed to state courts. Because the federal court has leaned over backwards to preserve the rights of the common man. I would say that is the general perception of the people that I see. However I will say this, they have a good perception of the brilliance and intelligence of a lot of federal judges and respect them.
INTERVIEWER: Has the court shaped public opinion or been shaped by it?
JF: The court has been shaped very little by public opinion, they have opinions of their own and they're hard to change.
INTERVIEWER: What was Judge Steger like?
JF: Judge Steger was a very popular and very nice fellow. He practiced in Longview before he came to Tyler. He used to be with a firm in Tyler with Murph Wilson who recently died, and he was appointed first us district attorney. And when judge Shehee died he took judge Shehee's place as federal judge. He was very conservative and a very good friend of some very conservative senators. And to tell you the truth the lawyers who defended civil cases liked to try cases before him because he was very conservative. He didn't go wild on these big verdicts and all that. On the other hand the plaintiffs bar they didn't like to try in his court because he was too conservative. They wanted to go to judge Justice, he was quite liberal and they could get more money for their client. And that's generally a view you're going to find.
INTERVIEWER: Describe your interaction with Judge Steger.
JF: Well first of all we were close personal friends, his wife and my wife were real close friends. Every year the federal judges all over the country had a big conference and they were entitled to bring guests. And Steger invited me and my wife oh 5 or 6 years, where we would attend the judges convention and we met a whole lot of federal judges from all over the country, including supreme court judges some of them. And on another scale he loved to fish, he and I fished together, he had a boat. We fished together at all of these lakes around here, we went to Athens and like Tyler east and all around. He held a record, catching the largest bass at lake Murbahl. And he also is a big sportsman, he likes football. Unfortunately he went to SMU, and they don't do well in sports. He also went to Baylor, as an undergraduate and transferred to SMU for law school. We used to go on fishing weekends at Lone Star Lake. We knew some people who let us have their cabins; we would take our lawyers and he would take 3 or 4 people and we would have a big weekend.
INTERVIEWER: How had Judge Steger influenced your career?
JF: Well I tried cases before judge Steger and juries, and he has influenced my career by giving me cases to try. And suggesting legal tactics, he's helped me educational wise.
INTERVIEWER: What judges have been influential to you and how?
JF: Randolph Bryant, the first federal judge that I knew, he impressed me very much with his legal ethics. And by the way Steger is known for his ethics too. He can be hard on criminals but if he sees that they have a chance to improve themselves he'll help them, he's that type of fellow. And actually he's got a soft heart and that's hard to find in a federal judge.
INTERVIEWER: What cases have been influential?
JF: There's been hundreds of cases that have influenced me, state court, federal court from Marbury v Madison on down. And I read the Supreme Court journals, I belong to the Supreme Court historical society and I get magazines from them so yeah I'm influenced by them. And I'll say this, by and large we have excellent legal brains on our U.S. Supreme Court, there are exceptions, one or two maybe just mediocre. But we've got some good judges like Rehnquist, Chief Justice we have now and that O'Conner woman is a good judge. By and large those judges are well learned in the law.
INTERVIEWER: What judges have affected daily life and the community?
JF: Well yes Steger, before he got to be federal judge he tried cases for state courts over here and they influenced his life for sure. He tried cases that the federal court wouldn't have jurisdiction over.
INTERVIEWER: What issues were the most important?
JF: He was very keen in the sufficiency of evidence, to be sure that there was sufficient evidence before an issue was submitted to the jury; some judges are not but he is. He is highly ethical and honest, he doesn't always show it but he's got a soft heart, he likes to help underprivileged people. And if someone comes into the court and hasn't any money and not a good lawyer and he tried to help them.
INTERVIEWER: For you?
JF: I'm prejudiced, because I lean to the defendant's side, I don't believe in large verdicts for people who aren't really hurt and things like that. I've been in civil defense, my main thing. But I say that if a person actually is hurt and the defendant should be liable I don't have any hesitancy in thinking that. But I think there are a lot of fake cases.
INTERVIEWER: How has the law changed as a result of the U.S. District court for the Eastern District of Texas?
JF: Procedural change is the biggest.
INTERVIEWER: In what direction is the court moving?
JF: The reason that's hard to answer is, some courts are moving to the right and some are moving towards the left. Our Supreme Court should standardize it and keep them on a direct path. The courts are not supposed to legislate law, that's for the legislative branch and congress. But some judges can't help but try and legislate a little in their opinions. Our present Supreme Court is quite good generally.
INTERVIEWER: Discuss attorney-judicial relationships.
JF: Judges such as Steger shaped my views because they were ultra conservative and wouldn't give the plaintiff anything unless he was actually entitled to it.
INTERVIEWER: Did Judge Steger shape the times, or was he a product of them?
JF: He was a product of the times, he ran one time for congress. Of course as a republican against Lanely Beckworth. (I don't know if that's the correct spelling of his name. The recording I have is not clear in that one spot. So that is my best guess.) Lanely was a Democrat, he introduced me to the Supreme Court. That's how I got my license up there, he was the only one I knew in Washington. You have to have someone introduce you so he introduced me. Steger has been I suppose about as conservative a judge as you will find. That doesn't mean he won't give the plaintiff something, but he sure had better be entitled to it. Also he is tough on crime. If it's a youngster hadn't been in much trouble. He'll help him, but you take a professional criminal he'll lay it on him.